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 Arthur Books on how to "Love Your Enemies"

March 12, 2019

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Ep. 13:  Arthur Books on how to "Love Your Enemies"

March 12, 2019

Arthur Brooks, author of the brand new Love Your Enemies and President of the American Enterprise Institute, sits down with Carly to talk about the importance of "disagreeing better," finding happiness and making sure to approach even political adversaries with love and respect.

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I'm Carly Fiorina and this is By Example. On this podcast, we sit down with leaders of all types to explore examples of real leadership and the qualities of all great problem solvers. I think we get really confused about leadership is. On By Example, we lift up the real leaders, people who are focused on changing the order of things for the better and solving real problems that are right in front of them, leading by example. One of the reasons we don't often have political figures on By Example is because politics are so often so negative. I made something of an exception in this conversation. When was the last time you put the word politics and happiness together? Probably never. But, Arthur Brooks, who also is the head of the American Enterprise Institute does exactly that. AEI is a center-right Think Tank which takes on issues from economics to education to foreign policy. Arthur Brooks has been the head of AEI for the last ten years. He will be leaving the organization soon, but he's going to continue to dedicate his life to promoting things that really matter. What Arthur has been writing about recently is happiness and why happiness is so important to citizens, in our lives, and actually to our nation. I think you're really going to learn a lot from Arthur, as I always do when I sit down and talk to him. He is grounded in his faith. He is motivated by a real principal. He's a thoughtful leader whose point of view, while sometimes political and focused on policy, mostly focuses on respect, on love, and on happiness. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I'm here with Arthur Brooks. Such a delight to be with you again. Thank you, Carly. Great to be with you, always. Well, always. In fact, I was thinking before we sat down, about the last time that we were together, and we were on a stage, right after president Trumps inauguration. We were talking about politics, and policy, and how we as citizens ought to operate. I want to continue that conversation today, as well as talk about your upcoming book. Before I do that, I want to just a little bit introduce you to our listeners, and viewers of By Example, our podcast. You're very famous, world famous. Probably everyone knows who you are. You know, I think not. Well, in my world, you're very famous and everyone knows who you are. Maybe I can just give our listeners my introduction of you. All right. I first came across you from afar. Perhaps one of your books had just been released, but this was more than a decade ago. I remember reading what you were writing and thinking, wow, this is a real intellectual in the best sense of the word, talking about political issues, cultural issues, community issues in a way that is rigorous, that is clear-eyed, and that is also prescriptive. That's a pretty rare combination, actually. And then, I began to follow you and I realized that you would talk about things that other people weren't talking about. For example, as a leader in the conservative moment, all of a sudden you started talking about poverty, and why poverty was a problem for everyone, and why we were approaching poverty in the wrong way. Once again, your analysis, your assessment was intellectual and rigorous, and clear-eyed, and incredibly empathetic. We don't have enough empathy. You displayed empathy as well as intellectual rigor. You've always been a bit ahead of the curve. That's the Arthur Brooks that I know. Your new book that's coming out today, as a matter of fact, is once again, a bit ahead of the curve. Lately, you've been talking about happiness. A lot of people are deeply unhappy, but also not talking about it. Right. The Arthur Brooks that I know that I want to introduce to our listeners and viewers is a person of great depth, of intellectual rigor, of empathy and compassion, who's had a very interesting and nontraditional path. That's for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. That's the Author that I know. It means a lot coming from you Carly. I mean, look, you've been a real visionary in the ideological space, and in the business world. You're bringing all these ideas together so that we can have better leaders, so those words from you mean everything to me. Thank you for that. Well, that's a very generous commentary coming from you. It's why I wanted to sit down with you because, in By Example, we talk with people who are leading, and problem-solving, and having a positive impact every day. I've spent so much of my life focused on what makes a leader and leader and why do some problems get solved, while other problems fester. The catalyst is always leadership, but I think we're so confused about what leadership is today. We think it's the guy with the big title, the big position. A lot of power. Yeah, a lot of power. Yeah, that's are. It turns out so many of those so-called leaders disappoint us so profoundly. Yeah, that's right. The institutions that they lead are disappointing us profoundly. No, I completely agree. You know, it's amazing, you talk about our backgrounds really determine a lot of how we see the world. I mean, you were in the business world before you came into the ideological world before you became an ideal leader in the Republican party and in conservative politics. The way that you talk about leadership, it reflects the experiences that you had at the pinnacle of the business world. These experiences that we have, we have to bring them as a force of good. My own background was in the arts. I was a professional French horn player for 12 years before I went back to ... I know, so amazing. It's unusual, but this is why America is so great, right? That's right. I mean, when you think about where you started off and where you got as a leader in business. I was a medieval history major, so there you go. medieval history major. That's why we get along. Yeah, yeah, but also just the way that you rose in the business world. The way that you went from what you were doing inside of business. A secretary. I mean, you were doing executive assistant work to the CEO. That's American. Yes. I mean, see, this is a country of ambitious rift raft and that's what we want. You know, what alarms me the most about America, by the way, Carly, is that we're getting away from that. That's right. We're getting away from the idea that this is a country that we're the only country in the world that we're proud of the fact that our grandparents were poor. It's crazy, isn't it? You know, your background is so interesting to me because you took so much from it, and you're using it so well. My own background in the arts is different, but I try to use it in the same way. You know, when I was a professional musician, when I was playing in the Barcelona Orchestra, and I would just, I admired Johann Sebastian Back. You know, the greatest composer that ever lived. Well, we could have an argument about that, but we won't. True, true, true. But, at least one of the greatest composers that ever lived. Yes. What really impressed me about him and this leads to how I see leadership, what he said in minor biography near the end of this death about why he wrote music and here's what he said, "The aim and purpose of all music is nothing less than the refreshment of the soul, and the glorification of God." I read that and I thought, can I say that about my work? Of course you can. But, I'm not sure I could and that's what impelled me to do something different. I said to myself, I want to answer that question about my work the way Bach does. It seemed to me that that's the way, and again, for those of who are listening or watching us right now, and they're not traditionally religious, don't be thrown off by this. The point of work is to serve. The point of leadership is to serve. That's right. Full stop. Yep. With Back, maybe the great composer ever lived taught me that and I thought, so that's the aim and purpose of his music, that better be the aim and purpose of my work. I left the music business because I could answer that in an affirmative. I looked for something else where I actually could. I became a social scientist because I wanted to be a force to refresh the soul and then glorify God. At very least, to serve other people. I knew that, you know, leadership takes all different forms, whether you're the CEO of Hewitt Packard, whether you're the president of Think Tank, whether you're a college professor, whether you're making a podcast, one way or the other you're leading, you're forming the way that people think. You have leverage. Everybody listening to us has more leverage than they think. Ask yourself, are you refreshing souls? Are you serving others? If you're basically glorifying yourself, or garnering your own power, you're doing it wrong. You're wasting your time. You may be or maybe not be hurting other people, but you're wasting your time and there's no time to waste. You said it so beautifully, and so well, and you're illustrating also why I was so excited to talk to you because the purpose of a leader is to serve others. The highest calling of a leader is to change the order of things for the better and unlock potential in others. That's what I say all the time. It's what I've learned, starting from the bottom, and going to the top. Everyone, anyone, actually can lead. Anyone can have a positive impact. It's just today, I think people get so many signals that tell them exactly the opposite. Our culture is so, it's mean, it's mean spirited. We focus on flash, controversy, conflict, fame, all these things that have nothing to do with service. They have nothing to do with glorifying God. For sure, they have nothing to do with making a positive impact and yet, we get so caught up in that. Our politics seems to be absolutely, as George Washington warned us in 1789, winning, not serving. Right. Not leading, not problem-solving. That right. Winning and power. Absolutely. It's hugely alarming, but of course, within every challenge, every tragedy, every problem there lies a huge opportunity. For the past ten years, you and I have known each other for these years and we talk, and we mutually worry about the drift in the country, and then we really regret some of the bad things that have happened over the past few years where this sense of vocation has been largely a reft, among a lot of leaders who are more keen on encountering power and winning and their own personal glory. That's actually a real opportunity because the drift that our country was in needed something to shake people awake. I think that that's what's going on right now. I have data, you'll love this. I have data that show that 93% of American's hate how divided we've become as a country. I mean, if we think about this, I don't like the hate that I hear all the time on social media, and in the elite media, and every place it seems. The Culture of Contempt, what my new book is about, is about a culture contempt. I hate it too, but so do 93% of American's. If it were just Carly and Arthur regretting the culture of contempt, that's a really big problem, right. Then, I don't know, move. If it's Carly and Arthur, and 93% of American's, that's a huge opportunity. Now, what does it mean? The other seven percent that likes it, and they're in charge. The other seven percent, they're getting rich, and powerful, and famous, and they're getting clicks, and they're getting a lot of prestige, and they're screaming on college campuses, and there's some that are getting elected to office, and some have great big TV contracts. Yeah, I got it. Do you know what? The other 93% of us are kind of sort of following along sometimes, but we don't like it, and we're looking for a way to fight back. Woe be unto the seven percent because the 94% of us are going to strike back. I mean, look, when American's don't like something, they won't put up with it forever. This is not communist China. We actually have a voice. We have a choice. This is the opportunity we've been waiting for. The [inaudible 00:13:05], and the drift, and things getting worse, but now, people are being shaken awake. You know, the fact that you have this really super popular podcast, that's a bellwether. That's an indicator. That's market demand. Nobody's forcing anybody to listen to Carly Fiorina podcast. They're listening to it because they want something empowering, and they want something good, they want to think about what leadership really ought to be. For those that are kind of bullying the rest of us, that seven percent, a new day is coming. So many people listening to this are going, yay, Arthur. We want a new day to come. It's so interesting the way you say that because of course, I wasn't aware of the 93% data, although, it doesn't surprise me. What I see, a lot of the work that we do is in communities with nonprofit organizations that have been dealing with Alex and [inaudible] would've called, civil society, in some cases in cooperation with businesses, or other organizations, that are dealing with festering difficult problems. Whether it's homelessness here in DC, or mental health, or veteran's issues, the shift that I've seen, is that people of all kinds, focused on all kinds of issues, with all kinds of political beliefs, the majority of people in communities, dealing with festering problems, have come to a place where they've said, "Do you know what? I can't wait for the politicians to fix it anymore. They're not going to fix it. If I don't, if we don't actually start to solve their problems ourselves, they're not going to get solved." I think that's huge. To me, that's my anecdotal evidence of the 93%. People are stepping up and saying, "Okay, how do I become a more effective problem solver? How do I actually lead? I'm not waiting for them anymore." We've got to figure out how to make it better now. You're right, it's a huge opportunity. Yeah, that's right. Totally. I remember the last time you and I were together, on a stage, we were talking, and you made a really interesting point, as you always do. You said, "Do you know what? The problem in this country now is we're spending too much time paying attention to the president, any president. We spend too much time talking about what's going on in Washington DC." In this country, Washington DC shouldn't be the arbiter or the decider of as much as they have become the arbiter and the decider. I thought, what an interesting point. I love that. That's what I start seeing, that's what I see starting to happen now. That people are saying, "I can't wait. By the way, I'm sick of it." You to your point. Yeah. I'm sick of it. I'm tired of it. I can't watch it anymore. How interesting that the elite media, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, whoever you choose to listen to, watch, all of their viewership is declining. Yeah, no, that's right. Once again, we can get addicted to things, but we can be addicted to cigarettes, or Twitter, or something like that, but if we don't like it, sooner or later, we're not going to do it. We're not going to do it forever. Maybe cigarettes you'll do it forever until you die of lung cancer, but I don't think there's something like that for Twitter. Ordinarily, when people do something that stimulates their dopamine pathways, like watching really terrible television where people are screaming at each other and saying that their politician enemies names and fools, stupid and evil? You know, they'll watch that for a little while, it'll scratch their itch, but if they don't like it, sooner or later, they're going to do something about it. That's the beautiful thing because you can do something about it in America. America's founders, they didn't see the federal government as the be all and end all, quite the contrary. They were afraid of centralizing power. Yeah, power concentrate is power abuse. They understood that. Or, at the very least, it's opportunities wasted. You know, in a big vast country. Part of the expanse is unimaginable, particularly given the transportation at the time. They knew that you needed a state and local control of things. Furthermore, you needed community organizations. You needed families. You needed churches. You needed all of the intermediary institutions. I mean, that's how America was designed if you look at what Madison and Hamilton were talking about, if you look at what Jefferson was saying, what later, Alexis de Tocqueville in 1835 was writing about in Democracy in America. They would be shocked, really saddened to see this preoccupation that we have with every tiny thing that's going on in Washington DC as if were some reality show on cable television because that's kind of how we see it. The good news, I know for sure, but the good news about that is that that means that American's seeing it as entertainment, can look to something else as the source of seriousness. I see all kinds of good opportunities going on, all kinds of good things going on all over the United States. When I go to Arizona, you know, they're not looking at Washington DC, they're paying attention to their own business. My mother-in-law would always say, "They're sticking to their knitting." You know, I mean Dough Goosy is doing all kinds of good things that are totally bipartisan. He's talking about criminal justice reform and vocational and technical education. He's solving problems. You go to Indiana, there's all kinds of interesting things going on here and by the way, this is not just Republican's, this is also Democrats. There's cities that are experimenting with things. There are public-private partnerships going on all over the United States. For people who are depressed and it's like, "Yeah, we're cooked." You know, the federal government can't get anything done, you know, nobody gets along with each other, all they do is insult each other. Look at something more local. The really dangerous thing for me are people who don't seem able to do that. I was talking to somebody after the 2016 election, somebody I'm close to who is really progressive and is really, really, really bummed out about the election of president Donald Trump. I got it. I understand what he's talking about, but I said, "You know, on the same day who was elected superintendent of the public schools here?" I don't know. It's like, that's the problem. That really affects the kids. What are the things you can do right in your own community to make it better? Yeah, yeah. People are finally figuring out because of the force of the frustration where they say, "I feel impotent. I don't like it. It doesn't make me happy. I can't stop watching it. What do I do?" It's the same kind of thing when somebody's really super addicted to Twitter and they finally figure out they don't have to do it. Just stop. Just stop. It's like there's no gun to head, man. Yeah, just stop. There's no gun to your head watching president Trump's Twitter feed. You don't have to watch that. You don't have to pay attention to it. Is that why you started writing about happiness because that was, to me, that was another example of you sort of stepping out into an area that was going to be unexpected for a lot. I mean, he's the social scientist. He runs American Enterprise and what is he talking about happiness for? Once again, it was rigorous, and provocative, and challenging, and nurturing to the soul, I think. I think. I hope. My mentor was James Q. Wilson, the great social scientist, probably the greatest political scientist in the past 100 years. He created the broken window's theory of police, [inaudible] used. He was the social scientist that introduced the idea that morality is a human concept based on empirical methods. It's amazing what the stuff that he did. He has been with me since I finished my Ph.D. He wrote the forward to my first book and he was on the board of the American Enterprise Institute. This guy was with me all the way until his death in 2012. Along the way, at one point, he said something to me that really affected my thinking a lot that answers your question about why I write about happiness. He said, "You know, public policy at its best, only ever effects people at about the 5% margin of their life." I'm like, Jim, you could've told me that before I got my Ph.D. in public policy, you know? I said, and I asked the question you'd ask, which is, "So, what's the other 95%?" He said, "Mostly, love." If you want to affect people's lives, if you want to solve social problems, you have to talk about the nuclear fuel rods that our happiness and that's love. That's relationships. That's the faith that they have in God, and the relationship that they have with their kids, and the friendships that they're able to make, and the way that they're able to serve each other, and the whether or not they're lonely, and whether or not they can actually form functional relationships in their environments around them. If you can answer those questions, you can actually get at what people care about the most. See, the problem is we tend to focus on stuff that people care about less. It's funny, you know, these days, you spend a lot of time in northern California, which is this gee-whiz economy, right? People often wonder, you know, all of these incredible innovations that are going on in northern California, which are eye-popping. They're wonderful actually. Why aren't people getting happier? Yeah, they do have a dark side, big time. Twitter, we just talked about. Sure, but even when they don't have a dark side, we're not getting happier. You know, we're able to be more productive. We're able to be more efficient, how come we're not happier? The reason is because those are all the five percent margin. Those are all complicated things at the five percent margin of our lives. What we really want is the 95% dark matter of our souls and that's what comes about when we're a free country of free people, who can get married, and have friends, and vote for whoever we want, and have actual liberty, that's the stuff that matters. If you get a new public policy, you've got to do happiness. There's no other way. This is our opportunity because people are saying, "I'm not happy." So, let's talk about that. Let's talk about redesigning the country that we actually want, right? Well, yeah. People want, wherever they are, and whoever they are, fundamentally, people want a life of dignity, and purpose, and meaning. That gives them happiness and fulfillment. They have to feel respected and have dignity. They have to have purpose in their lives. They have to have meaning in their lives. That comes from their relationships, and their love, and sometimes work, if it's fulfilling in serving others. It's so true. Talk to us about your new book and it's such an interesting set of ideas that once again, are not what people would expect from a public policy social scientist. They're also not what they expect, necessarily from conservative, although, that word has come to mean many things. Everything and nothing is what, yeah, everything and nothing. Everything and nothing, yes. My book is called, Love Your Enemies. What an interesting title given these times. Yeah, no, subservience concept, right? Yeah, subservience concept. Somebody said that 2,000 years ago and wound up changing the world. Love Your Enemies, How Decent People Can Save American From the Culture of Contempt. Basically, it starts off, the book starts off with an experience that I had in 2014. I was doing, you and I are sort of on the same lecture circuit, and I mean you're the president of a Think Tank these days, there's not that much thinking in tanks. It's mostly traveling around and giving a lot of talks. Yes. And you're raising funds. It's a very fun job, very fun. I was giving a talk to a conservative activist group in New Hampshire in 2014. I was the only one not running for president. How knows how they accidentally got the Think Tank president on the schedule that day, but I thought to myself, what can I do that's going to be different than somebody running for president. You know, running for president you have certain things you need to do. You need to get people behind you, and to support you, I get it, right, but I'm not running for anything, so I thought, what can I say that will be different and that it will be helpful? In the middle of my speech, I said, "I want you to remember, like all of us agree, we're all politically conservative, and economically conservative when we're talking about these things, but I remember the people who are not here because they don't agree with us. They're political liberals, progressives. I want you to remember that they're not stupid and they're not evil, they're just American's who disagree with us freely." Afterward, this lady, she says to me, "Actually, I think they're stupid and evil." It was sort of funny. But, that is how our political dialogue feels. Here's that it made me think about, Carly. I remembered my family in Seattle. That's where I grew up. My mother was an artist, and my father was a college professor. What do you think their politics were? When that lady said that, she was just assuming that I knew nobody, hung out with nobody, loved nobody who's on the other side of the aisle. Man, I know tons of people. Everybody I grew up with. People I esteemed. I was in the music business. I'm an academic. I mean, it's like people I respect. I bet you, 100% of the people that are listening to this podcast, and watching this video, I bet 100% loves somebody with whom they disagree politically. Of course. My gosh, I don't agree with anyone all the time, not even myself, but certainly not the people closest to me, as my husband would attest. And that's great. That's great. That's the way it should be. What was she doing? I mean, she was inadvertently expressing not anger for the other side, but contempt. Contempt. The conviction of the utter worthlessness of the other side and to express contempt is the way that we make permanent enemies that's what's ruining our country. What we need, by the way, is not civility. That's a garbage standard. If I say, "Hey, Carly, my wife Esther and I, we're civil to each other." You'd say like, "Arthur, you guys need some counseling." My employees here at the American Enterprise Institute, they tolerate me. That's bad. Well, it's not a high performing team, that's for sure. Yeah, that's not a high performing team if you listen to the CEO of Hewitt Packard talking now. It's also not even agreement because agreement is stagnation and mediocrity. We need a competition of ideas. No, no, no. We owe it to each other to love each other. By the way, when Jesus said, "Love your enemies." In the fifth chapter of Matthew, He wasn't saying find some way to outsmart your foes, to vanquish them in some clever way. What He was saying was that you'll destroy your enemies by destroying the illusion that they were your enemies. This is what we need to remember about American's. This book, this new book, Love Your Enemies, it's a handbook for people that want to be leaders and they want to do this. They're convinced that they can be nice people, that they can be courageous in the way that they treat others, including those with whom they disagree. It's a handbook for people that want to renew the nation with the ideas of love. I used all my jobs as a social scientist, and all the things that I believe, and everything that's written on my heart. If I do this right, it's a social movement. It's waiting to happen. Yes. I hope so. This, I think, you know, people who are listening to us, if you want to be a leader, and if you want to be good, and you want to serve others, and you want to bring America back and make it truly great for everybody, without vanquishing your foes, and banishing them to some sort of outer darkness, this is a book I wrote for you. I dedicate to the people listening who want those things and I dedicate it to them with love. Wow, what a great incentive to read the book. You know, it's interesting that one of the things that I say high performing teams have to have, so let's just think of most people never fulfill their potential, although, they could. Most teams don't always live up to their potential. As a nation, we have so much untapped potential. But, one of the things that's absolutely required to unlock potential and perform at the highest level in any setting, is you have to talk with people who disagree with you. I mean, it's just true. It's why diverse teams create better results. If you talk to a neuroscientist or a psychologist, they would tell you the only time that a person actually learns something new, or changes their behavior, is when they are challenged by something that they don't already know and believe. Right. Which is to say that we can't learn or get better unless we are challenged by someone that we don't always agree with. Yeah, exactly right. It's not just about the team getting better, or the community getting better, the nation’s getting better, it's about us getting better. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Of course, the other thing that we know, nothing worth doing ever happens with a single person acting alone, nothing. Everything that's worthwhile is some version of a team effort and because of that, you have to collaborate with others. The only way you can collaborate effectively with others, is you have to have the humility to understand you don't know it all, you're not right about everything, and the empathy to actually see, and hear, someone else, what they bring to the table, their value, even when they don't agree with you. The thing that cuts against what we're talking about, love your enemy, disagree in a way that challenges both of you, and leads to somewhere better, collaboration that's effective and achieves real results, the thing that cuts against I think is, in a way we are naturally tribal. You know, again, a neuroscientist would tell you that actually our brains are programmed to recognize people like ourselves and sort of go toward them. It was a survival mechanism a millennia ago. We get kind of tribal. Our politics makes us more tribal. Truthfully, I think sometimes we're most comfortable with people like us. We can sit and finish each other's sentences, and we all agree it's comfortable, but it's not very effective and it's certainly not fulfilling. It's not challenging. We're not growing and we're not learning and things aren't getting better. Yeah, there's that guy who teaches at the medical school, at Wash U, Washington University in Saint Louis. His name is Robert [inaudible] and he talks about something called neophilia, which is the love of new things. Basically, what he finds is that we have a tendency toward security, and tribalism is like with like and security. Security, yeah, I understand who you are. That's not the secret to happiness. No. The happiest people are the people who have a practice of exposing themselves to sort of pathogens. He doesn't mean like when people cough on you. I mean, what it means is trying new things. Things with which you're not comfortable. That gives people intense pleasure, it turns out. Yes. But, it takes actual work and that's the corollary. It also takes courage sometimes. For sure, for sure. There's certain things you're not going to, I'm not going to go expose myself it ISIS. That's not the kind of diversity I'm looking for, but I do want to expose myself ... I'm probably not going to become a physicist tomorrow. Yeah, well, I bet you could. You've done a lot of change in your life. I have read a lot of books on physics lately. That's right. Anyway, go ahead. There are certain pathogens you're not going to expose yourself to, but the point is that you should listen to new kinds of music, meet different kinds of people, talk to people who have different views than you, who are not going to threaten you and kill you, but they're just going to disagree with you. That's a good thing that brings in not just higher productivity on teams in business and not just [inaudible] to politics, it brings intense pleasure, why? What you find is that you have commonalities you didn't understand. That's called bridging. You know, and so there's two kinds of social capital. That who is social science literature by the social capital that Robert Putnam talked about, and bonding social capital is tribal, or that we bond because of the identity that we have in common. Bridging social capital is where like goes to not like, and finds the things that they have in common as humans as well. Great teams in businesses, what do they do? What they have in common is an intense desire to succeed. That's what they have in common. And then, their differences, iron sharpens iron, as the Proverbs say. You know, it's very interesting. There's a ton of data on this that workplaces where everybody thinks the same way, fail, where everybody looks the same way fail. Yep. Where everybody has exactly the same sort of objective, they fail. You want to cultivate this. Now, the most important kind of diversity of all, which by the way many universities have failed to apprehend, is diversity of viewpoint, diversity of opinion, intellectual diversity. That's right. That's really what we need, right? I mean, one of the reasons that it's been so important that men and women work together, is because men and women think differently about different things, not systematically, but you get different kinds of people that think in different ways, that's super good for teams, super good for businesses. It's been great for American business, as a matter of fact. Now, okay, since the point is not that men and women work better together because they have XY, verses, XX chromosomes, but because they think differently, so let's look for even more of that idea, diversity. Let’s purposively go to build teams of people who think differently, and then let's say, if that's not just my source of innovation and productivity, that's my source of pleasure. That's my source of happiness. Then, look for it in your own personal life. I mean, Carly, it's rocked my world since I've seen this because what am I doing now? When I find somebody in a room whose most different than me, I'm like a beeline for that person. I'm weird. You know, it's like I mean, maybe I'm naturally like this. I'm neophilic, but I don't know. Well, I don't think you're weird. I think you're disciplined about following through on something that you believe works. Yeah. It's like any other habit or discipline, it works, I'm going to do more of this. You know, when you talk about it gives people pleasure, I think about some of the leadership labs and problem-solving sessions that we pull together for organizations that have a lot in common because they're focused on the same kind of issue. We polled a group of organizations together here in Washington DC that are all focused on homelessness, however, despite the fact that they all focused on the same issue, it turned out that they didn't collaborate very often. You know, there's a lot of competition for money, et cetera. However, that's not the point. The point is that they came into the room, as it always happens, it doesn't matter whether it's to your point of business, of community, they came into the room and of course, there was a little bit of trepidation. They had different ways of approaching things. We in our work, facilitate, in another word would be force people to get in a team with people they're different from. We have a common cause, maybe, a common concern, in this case, homelessness, but get in a group with someone different. The joy and I will use that word, the joy that people experience when they sit down with someone they didn't know before, they didn't think they had a lot in common with and all of a sudden they find common purpose, common ground. We don't think the same, but together, we can achieve something that individually we couldn't. It reminds me of when I was a CEO, somebody sent to me, "You were a philosophy major. Who was your favorite philosopher? No, what was your favorite business school book? Your favorite business book." I said, "Well, I was a philosophy major. My favorite business book was Hegel." They didn't really know what I was talking about. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. I said, "I think that's the essence of how to get from where you are to somewhere better." Right. I think actually, that's what we're talking about. Thesis, antithesis, not the same. Not the same. Yeah. A lot of disagreement, but if you can figure out how thesis and antithesis make synthesis, that's magic, and it also to your point, it lights people up inside. They become joyful and happy. It's a weird thing. You know, they don't expect it. People want comfort, right? They want to basically put on their pajamas, and sit on the couch, and watch Netflix. That's a very comforting thing to do, right? When you impel them in some way to put on their clothes and go to a party, they tend to have more fun, but they didn't want to do it because the inertia was to keep sitting on the couch. Yes. Well, there's a physics concept. Inertia, it's true. Yeah, yeah, and there's social inertia, and there's business inertia, and there's political inertia. And there's personal inertia, to your point. For sure. Yeah, for sure. One of the things that you find, however, is when you put Democrats and Republicans together in a room and you make them talk to each other, and you have them start by talking about their children, they get much more intense joy, then if they were talking to somebody that they've never met before because it's this discovery. It's like Louis and Clark finding the Pacific Ocean or something, it's like wait a second, you love your kids too. You love your children too. It's crazy. It's this discovery that's really revelatory and that's kind of what we need to find in the United States. Again, we shouldn't agree. It's not like we're going to agree on tax policy or foreign policy. I mean, the way that you and I see those issues as people who are politically conservative, is going to be different than the way the political liberals do, however, we need liberals. Here's the interesting thing, I can ask politicians this all day long, and I'll say, "How many of you ... ", and I've done this with big groups of politicians, "How many of you wished we lived in a one-party state?" No hands and no hearts either by the way. No. Okay, you've just told me if you're grateful to not live in a one-party state, axiomatically, you are grateful for the other party. Whoa, right? I mean, and you know, I don't feel grateful to people with whom I disagree with all the time, but I should be grateful in a pluralistic society for people whom I disagree because I'm grateful to be in a place that doesn't just have one opinion. And then, if you take it to the next level, so what are you going to do? If you actually want to be able to express your opinion, and you think it's valuable, you have to fight for the other person. My dad taught me when I was a kid, that the mark of all courage, is not fighting against people who don't hold your point of view, it's fighting for people how don't hold your point of view, standing up to people who have your point of view, standing up to people on your own side, on behalf of people on the other side. Maybe you could give that speech in Washington DC these days. Yeah, no and I do sometimes. Here's the interesting thing, politicians agree with me because they're people too. They don't know what to do. They feel trapped in the system. They're very trapped. They're very trapped in the system. Some of them, my friends, really close friend are up on Capitol Hill and they don't like it and they don't like it any better than you and I like it, and so that's why we have a responsibility to show this. That's why wrote the book. That's why you're doing your podcast. That's why we're doing what we can. You know, a political movement tends to be downstream from a social movement. That's right. Well, politics is downstream of culture. It's so interesting, we come at it from a different point of view, but you and I are an illustration of what we're talking about. We come at it from different places, but we end up in the same place. I have a book coming out in April called, Find Your Way. Tell me about it. I can't wait to read it. Well, it is starting at a personal level, how is it that you do all the things we're talking about it? How is it that you find the courage and have the character to interact with people that are different than you, and actually solve problems? How do you see possibilities in all the problems around you because every problem is an opportunity? How do you make an impact on that? Whether it's Love Your Enemies, congratulations, the book is out today, or Find Your Way, coming in April. April what? Ninth. April 9th. Is it a business book, self-improvement book, politics book, all of the above? I would call it more self-improvement. It starts from the personal and it applies in any setting because I have been applying these principles in every setting for a very long time. I'm going to pre-order it today. Business, politics. Oh, thanks. Go under For sure. Got it, or I can go on Amazon. I can pre-order it on Amazon too, absolutely. Well, either one. The point is I completely agree that people want a different way than what we have. It goes all the way back to what you said at the top. The seven perfect are in charge. Yeah. In charge of the noise, in charge of the levers of power, and yet in this country, the citizen is sovereign. The citizen is sovereign, not the media, not the president, the citizen is sovereign. We have the ability, every one of us, individually, but all of us collectively, have the potential and the ability to do so much more. I am so excited to read the handbook. I love that term, handbook. Perhaps we can continue to collaborate on how to leverage this movement. I would love that. Let's do it. To get people to understand they have far more power than they realize and far more potential to make a positive contribution, to the change the order of things for the better. Yeah. You know, they used to say that a couple of years ago when there was that, Thomas Piketty, his book was really popular about the one percent getting richer and richer, and all of that. We are the 99% and you know, I always thought, that's so silly. But, do you know what? We are the 93%. That's right. We are the 93%. Yeah, you know, and I demand to have a country where I don't hate liberals, because do you know what? I don't. I love them, just like I love conservatives. There is zero reason, there is zero reason that I should agree, and at the same time not have more love for people and live in a country where we can get along, and where we can actually make progress. There is no reason that those things can't happen, expect, that somebody is standing in the way, and they're getting rich, and powerful, and famous on the basis of it. That's the real populism that we need. It's a populism of love in this country. Let's do it. On that note, Arthur, I can't thank you enough. This has been an incredibly fun, not to mention provocative, and inspiring, and thought-provoking conversation. I hope that it is not the end, but the beginning of many more. Thank you so much for joining us on By Example. Thank you, Carly. Congratulations on Find Your Way. And congratulations on Love Your Enemy. That's all for now, but you can always check out more episodes online at, or on iTunes. Please subscribe, so you can get all of the episodes. You can be the first to get updates, and exclusive offers by texting, By Example to 345-345. You can also send us feedback on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram at Carly Fiorina, or by email at Until next time, I'm Carly Fiorina and this is By Example.